The importance to stimulate children/student/youngsters #brain #medialearning2011

Peter Adriaenssens (expert in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at KULeuven) speaks at the conference of Media and Learning in the Flemish Parliament in Brussels, Belgium. Some notes from his speech.

Brain and educational practice
All starts at the neuron level. These neurons and their branches will form a neural network. From birth to 2 years, this neural network is growing at a quick speed.

this process is genetically determined, but not all will be needed, this is were the genetic will meet nurture. Parts of these will be pruned as theings are 'not needed'. So it is imperative to take this neural plasticity into account when stimulating children from early on.

These synapsis will keep growing all the way to half of the twenties. This is the work that needs to be done for the biggest part in the first 18 years. Exposing the young brain to a wide variety of stimulus will decide the quality of emotion and behaviour. It is a continuous process of adaptation of the brain. this brain needs meaningful interactions to grow, so exposure to media, creativity, ... will actively stimulate growth (language, concentration, ...). This will result eventually in adolescent behaviour.

Children that are not exposed to stimulae, will result in a very poor set of neural networks.

As such society and all of us in it, are responsible for brain stimulus.

Exposure to stimulae are at the center of the discussion about violent exposure by media etc. But why do not we set up research centers about 'good media' instead of looking at the negative impact (personal note: good point!).

The Brain
cosists of many different parts that work together to make meaning of the world
nees appropriate nutrituion to reach it maximal potential
needs appropriate sleep in order to work effectively
needs ongoing developmentally appropiate stimulation
learns most effectively when information is provided in the child's prefrered larning or thinking style

Important to explore the language at which children feel at their best, might be dance, physical, creativity.... this push for positive stimulae is important for their brain as children have different preferences (or their brains have).
Provide children with camera's, internet, media tools...

Critical though of myself: lack of infrastructure will result in a sustained digital divide with low resource areas and/or groups.

Are we able to prove that media stimulus will result in an improved child development?
We do not have the data to found this, but we can set out some guidelines.
Growing importance of social skills. And making them open to democratical, critical analysis to be ready for this world. Lifelong learning is a need, but does education taking care of this need? Are schools redesigned to allow them to provide lifelong learning?

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On #Higher #Education and Society in Changing Times and searching for the reason why educational research centres are under siege

As the economic crisis is hitting a lot of countries, the strategies to counter this crisis are quite diverse. Certain countries opt to increase education and research (e.g. Germany) and cut budgets in other areas, other countries are slicing down education/research (e.g. United Kingdom). Personally, I cannot imagine how any politician that understands the growing knowledge era can vote in favor of research/educational cuts. But then I am a firm believer that education will add to human solutions (which is not the same as that education will save us all, but .... most of us will be able to improve our own path through life). In times of need, I think you must run ahead, move forward and explore to find new horizons. In that respect I like the American adagio of looking for the new frontier.

How strange is it to read on the one hand that education is changing rapidly and is in need for a new balance, while on the other hand educational research centres are - just in these times - shut down?

The UK has been a knowledge bastion for centuries (just like other regions in the world), but recently some major Technology Enhanced Learning centers were closed, without alternatives being set up. Last year Becta was closed, this year CHERI, or the Centre for Higher Education Research and Information is closed.

Before closing down, CHERI has published a final document that is of interest to Higher Education: "Higher Education and Society in Changing Times: looking back and looking forward."

It is an interesting document, looking at different aspects of Higher Ed:

• Higher education and social change: researching the ‘end times’ (John Brennan)
• Looking back, looking forward: the changing structure of UK higher education, 1980-2012. (Roger Brown)
• Globalisation and higher education.(Roger King)
• Learning and engagement dimensions of higher education in knowledge society discourses. (Mala Singh and Brenda Little)
• Supporting students in a time of change (Ruth Williams)
• Higher education in the ‘risk society’ (Sofia Branco Sousa)
• Implementing the Bologna Process: an example of policy recontextualisation – the case of Spain. (Marina Elias)
• The public role of higher education and student participation in higher education governance. ( Manja Klemenčič)

If a nation or region is in crisis, looking at succesful strategies to climb out of recessions, difficult situations, natural disasters... is a worthwhile investment. Cutting educational research downsizes chances for the weakest of any regions citizens, and a nation or region can only be as strong as its weakest members, or is this just some idealistic illusion speaking from within my heart?

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Running race between open learning and formal higher education

As the discussion on the future of higher education keeps on going, it is interesting to see how the presidents of colleges look upon these changes, particularly when looking at how top management looks at the pro's and con's of online learning.



The Pew Research Center just published a 29-page document on the digital revolution and higher education, where they look at the difference in valuating online learning between presidents of both for-profit, private and public colleges/universities and the public at l. The document is a result of a survey conducted in spring 2011. One is a telephone survey of a nationally representative sample of 2,142 adults ages 18 and older. The other is an online survey, done in association with the Chronicle of Higher Education, among the presidents of 1,055 two-year and four-year private, public, and for-profit colleges and universities. The report is quite interesting, as it clearly shows the difference of appreciation of online learning.



While going through the report I could not but wonder why online learning still is not embraced by the larger public. This resistance seems to me to have parallels in the adoption of technology. Just look back at the discussions that started when the television started to enter the mainstream shops, or when the CD's started to rise in interest, let alone the first personal computers... But on the upside, one can see that an increasing number of college/university presidents is embracing online learning and is increasingly offering online learning at their institute.



But what did surprise me was that although mobile devices are all around us, and we use it in many cases for contextualized, informal learning, most of the educational institutes don't yet have a clear guideline for these new learning devices. Which immediately suggests to me that the content resources will probably also not be designed taken into consideration mobile learning affordances. Or web-based affordances at that. For although courses are mentioned in the report, the quality of these online courses, and whether these courses are designed following online contemporary needs (peer interaction, scaffolding, designed for reconfiguration depending on the device which accesses the content...) is unclear.



Nice report though.



Here is a summary of the key findings (taken from the report):



The Value of Online Learning. The public and college presidents differ over the educational value of online courses. Only 29% of the public says online courses offer an equal value compared with courses taken in a classroom. Half (51%) of the college presidents surveyed say online courses provide the same value.



The Prevalence of Online Courses. More than three-quarters of college presidents (77%) report that their institutions now offer online courses. These courses are more prevalent in some sectors of higher education than in others. While 89% of four-year public colleges and universities offer online classes, just 60% of four-year private schools offer them.



Online Students. Roughly one-in-four college graduates (23%) report that they have taken a class online. However, the share doubles to 46% among those who have graduated in the past ten years. Among all adults who have taken a class online, 39% say the format’s educational value is equal to that of a course taken in a classroom.



The Future of Online Learning. College presidents predict substantial growth in online learning: 15% say most of their current undergraduate students have taken a class online, and 50% predict that 10 years from now most of their students will take classes online.



Digital Textbooks.Nearly two-thirds of college presidents (62%) anticipate that 10 years from now, more than half of the textbooks used by their undergraduate students will be entirely digital.



The Internet and Plagiarism. Most college presidents (55%) say that plagiarism in students’ papers has increased over the past 10 years. Among those who have seen an increase in plagiarism, 89% say computers and the internet have played a major role.



Do Laptops and Smartphones Belong in the Classroom? More than half of recent college graduates (57%) say when they were in college they used a laptop, smartphone or tablet computer in class at least sometime. Most colleges and universities do not have institutional guidelines in place for the use of these devices in class. Some 41% of college presidents say students are allowed to use laptops or other portable devices during class; at 56% of colleges and universities it is up to the individual instructors. Only 2% of presidents say the use of these devices is prohibited.



College Presidents and Technology. The leaders of the nation’s colleges and universities are a tech-savvy group. Nearly nine-in-ten (87%) use a smartphone daily, 83% use a desktop computer and 65% use a laptop. And they are ahead of the curve on some of the newer digital technologies: Fully half (49%) use a tablet computer such as an iPad at least occasionally, and 42% use an e-reader such as a Kindle or Nook.



College Presidents and Social Networking. Roughly one-third of college presidents (32%) report that they use Facebook weekly or more often; 18% say they use Twitter at least occasionally.

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Measuring Quality in eLearning through 33 indicators

Quality Assurance (QA) hits all of us at some point, but QA in eLearning is fairly new.

I was looking for something else when coming across this nice quality assurance online manual that is the result of a European Research on quality assurance. Although I do have some constraints while reading through the benchmarks (the term quality assurance does that to me), some of the pointers are indeed helpful.

This online manual features six chapters each focusing on a specific eLearning part and in total it features 33 eLearning benchmarks. In the guide you can find criteria and indicators which are useful if you want to screen your own institutional eLearning. The structure of the instrument is identical to the sections in the guide and are organized into six sections.

• Preface
• Chapter 1: Introduction
• Chapter 2: Strategic Management
• Chapter 3: Curriculum Design
• Chapter 4: Course Design
• Chapter 5: Course Delivery
• Chapter 6: Staff Support
• Chapter 7: Student Support
  
  Annexes:
• Glossary
• Assessors notes

The authors recommend that we first do a quickscan of the manual. Based on the results of the quickscan, you can restrict your focus in the manual to certain chapters.

While the benchmarks sometimes stay a bit vague: benchmark
7. E-learning components should conform to qualification frameworks, codes of practice, subject benchmarks and other institutional or national quality requirements.

The manual is useful, I particularly liked the fact that they make a distinction between indicators and expert indicators. E.g. "At excellence level: There is extensive institutional experience of delivery using blended learning and this experience is widely shared through the organisation. Well informed decisions on the use of pedagogic components are made routinely and reflect institutional policies regarding the development of learner knowledge and skills."

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Three wonderful resources for eLearning

The last couple of weeks I have encountered some very useful resources, so I wanted to share it. The text accompanying the resources is taken out of the documents themselves. I found all of the documents relevant: the first for practical eLearning development, the second for getting a more in-depth understanding of lifelong learning options, and the 3rd one to get a better understanding of the effect (or non-effect) discussion still accompanying blended learning.

Choosing authoring tools by ADL (29 April 2010): the purpose of this paper is to help those involved in the process of choosing authoring tools to make an informed decision. The paper presents a range of considerations for choosing tools, whether as an enterprise-wide acquisition or a single user purchase, and includes a sampling of current tools categorized according to the kind of product they are intended to produce.

Good practices and methodologies for HEI (Higher Educational Institutes) using ICT in the different fields of LifeLong Learning (30 October 2010).
The report is summarizing the outcome of a long research work that we made with the partners during the project based on a detailed research plan. We collected with different techniques possible Good practices of ICT use in the European Higher Educational arena, and categorised them in 9 territories and 8 areas. (See more details in the research plan.) Upon agreed definition we selected (shortlisted) those where at least two criteria of excellence could be observed. The partnership then gathered detailed data about the selected practices with different techniques, most commonly by updating or making interviews with them.
Finally 35 detailed cases were quantitatively analyzed by a common grid of 30 questions in 8 areas from management to communication. The analysis show the most frequently cited common elements in respective areas that lead to good practice, as well as territory specific outcomes where some aspects were cited only in one or two territory cases.
(Yes, this is really a report with formal language).

Evaluation of evidence based practices in online learning: a meta-analysis and review of online learning studies (September 2010).
A systematic search of the research literature from 1996 through July 2008 identified more than a thousand empirical studies of online learning. Analysts screened these studies to find those that (a) contrasted an online to a face-to-face condition, (b) measured student learning outcomes, (c) used a rigorous research design, and (d) provided adequate information to calculate an effect size. As a result of this screening, 50 independent effects were identified that could be subjected to meta-analysis. The meta-analysis found that, on average, students in online learning conditions performed modestly better than those receiving face-to-face instruction. The difference between student outcomes for online and face-to-face classes—measured as the difference between treatment and control means, divided by the pooled standard deviation—was larger in those studies contrasting conditions that blended elements of online and face-to-face instruction with conditions taught entirely face-to-face. Analysts noted that these blended conditions often included additional learning time and instructional elements not received by students in control conditions. This finding suggests that the positive effects associated with blended learning should not be attributed to the media, per se.

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OER: open educational resources an UNESCO intitiative #OERU and a critical view

SCoPe is starting an open and free discussion course on Open Educational Resources (OER) in connection with a UNESCO initiative to launch strategic assessment and accreditation for OER. Now, I belief in sharing content, with the idea that sharing will make the world a better place (yes, idealist maybe, but proud of it).

Before giving you more information on the initiative, a philosophical view. Thanks to Stephen Downes' ol'daily, my eye fell on a really wonderful and critical post from Tony Bates with regard to OER's. Tony Bates organizes his thoughts in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

Tony Bates' introduction already points you towards his major issues:

"I increasingly fear that the open educational resources movement is being used as a way of perpetuating inequalities in education while purporting to be democratic. Some components of OERs also smack of hypocrisy, elitism and cultural imperialism (the bad), as well as failure to apply best practices in teaching and learning (the ugly). Despite my support for the idea of sharing in education (the good), these concerns have been gnawing away at me for some time, so after 42 years of working in open learning, I feel it’s time to provide a critique of the open educational resources ‘movement’."

Part of his conclusion also right on the money (in my view):

"The main barrier to education is not lack of cheap content but lack of access to programs leading to credentials, either because such programs are too expensive, or because there are not enough qualified teachers, or both. Making content free is not a waste of time (if it is properly designed for secondary use), but it is still a drop in the bucket. Initiatives such as Health Sciences Online suck up a lot of sponsor funding that could be better used by providing proper educational provision within a developing country. If MIT wants to put its material online to show off the academic quality of its instructors, and their great lecture style (cough, cough) then fine, but don’t pretend you’re saving the world."

OER are at the middle of the educational discussion again, for UNESCO is having a foundation meeting to set up a strategy for assessing and accreditation when using OER's, so this might be interesting to follow. At the same time SCoPE is holding an open and free seminar on the topic. So, if you are interested in OER, feel free to read Tony's great post, and join one or both get togethers on the topic of OER.

The UNESCO initiative foundation meeting
Under the title: Towards an OER University: Free learning for all students worldwide.
Which, let's be honest, does not really excel in its visuals of the roll models, although the initiative might be started for all the right reasons, the front page shows: white, gray-suited men (which is not really excelling the idea of equally open to everyone, but they still can be, they just are not that into balanced visuals and testimonials yet).
You can listen and voice your questions by registering as a virtual student here (you need to login to wikieducator system, and then add your coordinates).
This will be a foundation meeting, and the timing is:

• Date: Wednesday, 23 February 2011, 9am to 5pm NZDST (world time for meeting start)
• Venue: Council Room, Otago Polytechnic, Dunedin, New Zealand (map)
• Streaming: Detail to be announced.
• Hash tag: #OERU
• Press release

See also drafting of the logic model for the OER university.
OER Unesco google group;

The SCoPe seminar prior to the foundation meeting can be followed (for free and online) here. To enter the SCoPe seminar, it suffices to register (for free) for SCoPe (SCoPe is a great initiative to follow, the organize wonderful seminars, so this is a good thing). It is nice to get some thoughts going before jumping into the synchronous end.

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Does blended learning increase student results? Yes, a case from the Tilburg University

During the innovation day at the university of Ghent, one of the speakers got my attention. Bob van den Brand from the Uni of Tilburg spoke about his experience in increasing student success thanks to blended instruction that was researched at the university of Tilburg.

The Uni of Tilburg (netherlands) had a challenge: big aula's who were populated with learners that were sometimes interested and showed attention, but most of the times the aula's were populated with a vast amount of bored learners. So Bob started looking for solutions that could get students interested again, and... if possible increase their grades while implementing the new techniques. And... it worked, after embedding web-lectures, web-excercises and video's into his lectures, an additional 15% of the students passed their exams.

His topic: accounting (no wonder students fall asleep! *joking, sorry nephew of mine*)
They tried out several strategies and looked at the results
First strategy: record everything and stream it.... it was okay, but this does not change the actual learning problems students can have.
Second strategy: only deliver movies from MAX 10 minutes, this had a positive effect.
Third strategy: he wanted to capture the attention of the students by using examples outside of the course, providing them to the students for individual or peer learning, and then focusing on questions and problems during the face-to-face sessions. And this strategy got 15% more students succeeding the exam.

Some hints he gives:
He is a firm believer in variation! Only with true variation (not simple details that change, but complete rethinking a concept angle).
The learning blocks need to be short as possible (which is liked by the students).
Give the students an extra if they create something: the students also had the possibility of getting bonus points/grades if they provided examples themselves (original examples).

Students could also access the exams afterwards, and look at them, which created an extra learning moment.

He suggests to start with small bitesize content: short, efficient and with a variety.
His format was a variety of online delivered content and actions, his blended approach:
web-lectures
web-tutorials
web-tests
web-consulting
live streaming

All of these five different stages got students more actively involved in the courses.

As an example of being creative and use variety, he mentioned that he did a bit on accounting while using Manchester United as the company to analyse.

Web-lectures e.g.:
All the movies were to the point (no polite intro's), integrated in LMS, with slides or relevant graphs.
In some web-lectures, the teacher wrote (digital pen) on the documents, to increase actual learning/teaching feeling.

web-consulting sessions: freely knitted with the other content. These sessions are meant to get questions and synchronous discussions going.

As a result of this research, he got an award in excellence in innovative learning award.

Tried to find some lecture content, but could not find it.

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Blogphilosophy: ageism in #education

Ageism is one of the big taboos in Western society. We have huge prejudices towards people with a certain age.

The remarkable side of this prejudice is that it occurs in an era where the population’s average age is getting older by the year. And although we are all getting older, we – older people (= which age do you feel ageism kicks in? I think it comes too early) are confronted by ideas embedded in Western culture. Ideas that are unsubstantiated at that.



This is no different in education. In fact mainstream education is/was a bastion of ageism.

Let me list the first 5 prejudice mindsets that come to mind:

1. You go to school from X to X, x being <25.>As if we all are flabbergasted by the knowledge provided by the educational institutes for people of that age, or as if we knew what was going on at 20 (well, I did not). We only start to learn at that age (at best).
2. The older you get the less you can learn: if you agree with this, get a life! Experts are formed through ongoing learning processes ;
3. PhD’s are mostly young graduates: well, I am putting myself up to tackle that one.
4. The digital native – digital immigrant discourse: oh please, try to sell that to my mom, she would shoot you with her WII gun.
5. Old professors or famous people good (let’s shake hands and take a picture), old people stupid (let’s just avoid talking to them all together).

I wonder, is Roger’s diffusion of innovation theory ever tested throughout age groups of different (early adopters, laggers…) groups of techy people? If not, I will do it, I will research it and yes my hypothesis is: once an early adopter, always an early adopter (looking at my auntie Anna, who shook like a maple leaf all of the time; we used her multiple times as a sugar shaker for pancakes... yes, we did, but more importantly, she learned Italian via CD's at age 90).



So please let us really disrupt education, cut down educational ageism barricades in the process and lift a new open minded Phoenix out of its ashes. Education is build by all of us, not just the young one’s, we as older educationalists either uphold the conservative paradigm of ‘my young assistants - best assistants, for they do not contradict me as older one's would’, or we shatter it, exchange notes and embrace openness, all ages and willingness.



(Another great cartoon by Nick D Kim: http://www.lab-initio.com/)

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2010 Horizon Report on emerging technologies' impact on education is out

The annual Horizon Report describes the continuing work of the New Media Consortium (NMC)’s Horizon Project in collaboration with Educause, a research-oriented effort that seeks to identify and describe emerging technologies likely to have considerable impact on teaching, learning, and creative expression within higher education.

You can download the report here. Or - and this is really cool - you can look at the version in which you can add your comments per paragraph here.

The nice thing about this report is that it focuses on emerging technologies, but that it also puts a time frame on it (time to adoption one, three, up to five years). There is a focus on mobile computing and simple-augmented reality as well (in different time zones). The report is 40 pages in length, and it gives an immediate and clear understanding of some of the technologies one can expect to become a reality in learning soon.

The report also looks at critical challenges (role of the academy and educational institutions, digital media literacy, new scholarly forms of authoring, publishing and researching).

What I liked reading a lot (as it was a concept I had not conscientiously linked to any practical learning possibilities, was the section on gesture-based computing (think Wii), so the machine-human interaction is becoming more embedded in learning as well. These gesture-based computing techniques have been used in medical science for very secure surgery, but I like the learning potential described in the report.

Throughout the report a myriad of examples are given (mostly Northern American), which makes it easier to grasp all the concepts and possibilities for your own implementation.

So, get the report, it is good public transport reading material.

George Siemens has had interesting thoughts on the 'making of' the report. He even suggested two great ideas that can be used by us all for brainstorming on global learning trends (copying from his weekly eLearnspace e-mail news):

"1. Pioneer educational informatics and visualization approaches to expand the report. Given the enormous amounts of data being produced through social media, Department of Education statistics, etc., making sense of data is critical. Targeting a few key data areas would extend the value of report. (for example, have a look at numerous social media monitoring services).
2. Enlarge the pool of participants to build a report. While I can see the logistical value of having an advisory board assist in the final production of the report, I would like to see a broader net cast at the start of trend identification. Why not open it up completely? Yes, it'll produce a mess of views, but that diversity is exactly what prevents calcification of views that occurs when similar groups of individuals are involved in brainstorming."

I agree with George in broadening the pool of participants in addition to looking across disciplines to get the bigger picture and to be of benefit to the larger group of educators, both in educational institutions and in companies.

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How do we change our educational institutions in view of the educational shift?

At ITM where I work, the time has come to look in-depth to our institutional future. For me it implies strategically thinking about the educational future of the institute together with other colleagues in the 'educational unit'. For me the strongest points will be: networking and redefining pedagogy.

This was my 2 cents that I put in yesterday to feed the ongoing discussion.

Changing our Educational Institutions

View more presentations from ignatia.

Following these first debates (research unit, educational unit, management unit all by themselves in the first instance), there will be a grant conference in which all the units come to some kind of cross-pollination and collaboration. I am looking forward to that one as well.

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#lff10 : Phil Candy: concentrating on organizational or institutional educational futures

Today I was following the presentation and live discussion on the topic of institutional educational futures by Phil Candy, taken place during the Learning Future Festival 2010, an online conference organized by the University of Leicester. Notes taken during the presentation and the following discussion:

It is vital for educational institutions to be aware of the direction education is taken and to prepare graduates for the future. So educational institutions must invest in teaching materials and resources (question here: what about ethical issues, what about human resources that might need to be retrained to become in sync with contemporary or future learning facilitators? I posted this question at the designated discussion forum, I will add the reply as soon as Phil or someone else has the time to reply) and – a very important one I think – universities have a duty to society to be engaged with discourses about the future (I also think universities must give a moral, critical, ethical framework for the graduates to take along in there future lives, see a post on critical pedagogy by Paulo Freire which is in the pipeline, I will link to it as soon as I post it (next week) ).

3 strategies for future university:

• Ensuring a future perspective
• Raising the level of staff awareness
• Challenging the vision of the university’s digital future, this last one is the focus of the rest of the presentation, based on a four part model which is interconnected.

Australian digital futures institute (will be launched formally in the next few months, but has been existing for 2 years):

• building bridges between teaching and research.
• Push the boundaries in the use of technologies in higher education.
• Create opportunities for collaboration
• Attract investment and funded research and development
• Share knowledge, skills and resources
• 
  
• Virtual incubator and business development hub
• Establish a commercial business incubator with and for local businesses and the chamber of commerce
• Provide an opportunity for graduates to create micro-businesses.
• Leverage the existence of corporate club, either as mentors, as supporters, or as users of the services provided.

Next generation learning initiative

• Network of teaching and immersive learning hubs based at usq and in communities, schools, tafe institutes, workplaces.
• Application developed for education infrastructure fund for support.
• Useful for research collaboration and community outreach
• Supplements individual or lone learners.

(question: how do you guarantee quality in the hub? What will be your edge over other universities hubs considering strong content can be built by any strong network? Answer of the hub question by Phil (paraphrasing): depending on what happens inside the hub. It could be that a distributed network of academics might be possible, but it needs to be looked at. Matter of high-end technology learners and how they will evolve.

In the event if one of these hubs is based in a hospital, reasonable to expect that the tutorials will be more on the job. If it is an unattended facility in a school after hours, or library, it will be the learners using the content and the material.

Ubiquitous learning possible by using different connections and overall accessibility over a wide range of devices.

Challenges of higher education:

• Ensure the next generation of leaders have an integrated, cross-disciplinary understanding, by building a futures perspective into their core work.
• Embrace the use of technologies to solve enduring pedagogical problems and create links to the graduates futures
• Stimulated and galvanize public debate about preferable futures by challenging current thinking

To build on the past, add value in the present and create sustainable, desirable and equitable futures.

Question posed during the live discussion: how can learners get accreditation on the open material that is learned by the learner, yet the learner cannot get accreditation for these materials. Answer of phil candy: there are a lot of discussion. E.g. MIT has reduced the open course material because of the cost and lack of income. It needs to be reviewed. Phil Candy will send some links to some of these discussions.

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